Michael Fritzell from Asian Century Stocks on T. Hasegawa (podcast #110)
Michael Fritzell, founder of Asian Century Stocks, goes through his thesis on T. Hasegawa. T. Hasegawa trades at a huge discount to its domestic peers like IFF despite similar or better growth and margins, and Michael thinks some recent changes and shareholder pressure could set the company up to rerate.
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Transcript begins below
Andrew Walker: Hello and welcome to the Yet Another Value podcast. I'm your host Andrew Walker. If you like this podcast, it would mean a lot if you can rate, subscribe, share with a friend, and subscribe wherever you're listening to.
With me today, I'm happy to have Michael Fritzell. Michael is the founder of Asian Century Stocks. Michael, how's it going?
Michael Fritzell: Pretty good, thank you. Thank you so much. Yes.
Andrew: Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Let me start this podcast the way I do every podcast. First, a reminder to everyone, nothing on this podcast is investing advice. We're going to be talking about- it's actually larger in the grand scheme of things we normally talked about, but this is an international stock for my domestic listeners. A little bit on the liquid side, so everyone should just remember, please do your own due diligence, and consult a financial advisor. And then the second, a pitch for you.
The second way I started every podcast is a pitch for you, my guests. I'm a happy subscriber to Asian Century Stocks. It's one of the few Asian Focus subsets that I personally know of. You do great work. I'm looking at your pitch for the company we're going to talk about today, and actually, the funny thing about your substack is the real juice is not in what you write, the real juice is in the decks that you put together. You put together these great decks that look like they were made by like a multibillion-dollar activist firm on these companies. I'm flipping through it right now, it's just really nice.
Anyway, I really enjoy the Asian Century Stocks. People should go ahead and check it out. I'll include a link in the show notes. All that out the way, let's talk to the company we're going to talk about. The company, I think I'm getting this right, it's T. Hasewaga. It's a Japanese Stock, trades in Japan, obviously. And I'll turn it over to you what is T. Hasewaga, and why is it so interesting?
Michael Sure. Okay. T. Hasewaga is one of the top 10 flavors and fragrances producers. It's I think about rank number 9, in terms of sales volume. It's a direct pair of stocks listed in Europe and the United States in this industry that are highly popular with investors. But people don't really know about the Japanese market that there are 2 companies listed in Japan to do the exact same thing, yet trade multiple stocks, almost unheard of I think in Europe and the United States. So that's what's really attractive about this.
These companies, especially Hasegawa. They are high quality, with very strong barriers to entry. The industry structure is really oligopolistic. That's really what drew my attention to the stock. And there's another part of it that's also very interesting with regards to Hasegawa, in particular. And that's why I wrote about there's an activist angle as well with a UK activist becoming more last year. And I'll tell you exactly what they see in it. But I guess, first of all, I can introduce you to the business and the industry. What they do is they have 2 businesses, 1 business just like Kibodam, which is another western peer, and IFF, which I guess might be familiar to U.S. investors.
Andrew: Just suppose IFF, International Flavors and Fragrance, this is kind of one of the biggest players, if not the biggest player in the industry, been a great compounder trades for 20 times giving very steady results. People love this business. That's the one I when I was researching it. I was kind of thinking as the most direct peer and competent too. Just so everybody knows the exact company we're talking about.
Michael Exactly. What makes this industry so attractive? Well, you can obviously see through the high margins, and the reason that they have high margins is because the cost of flavor is minuscule in relation to the custom products. So, customers are willing to spend money to make sure that they have the best technology, and consistent quality of output as well. What they're doing is they're creating flavors, they can recreate flavors, and create flavors that appeal to customers in specific regions, or specific customer sentiments and that's not an easy thing to do. It requires R&D, and only a few companies have that.
Maybe actually introduced the company itself, and it has 2 major divisions. One is food ingredients. That accounts for about 85% of revenues. The other part is fragrances including perfumes, but also a scent for dishwashing liquid and so on. So, basically 2 major segments.
I think their customers have traditionally been in Japan, so they have strong relationships with Japanese customers, specifically, dairy companies and beverage producers. But also increasingly now in China and elsewhere so much that actually, 50% of profits are now coming from overseas. So, it's not a pure [inaudible] pound stock. It also has an overseas business, which is growing pretty fast.
We talked about the attractiveness of the industry and I think what I want to highlight there is the low cost versus the value of it. That is a key part of why they're able to have pricing power and high margins. Like in the 1980s, Coca-Cola, for example, I think they tried to change the recipe for Coca-Cola and that just flopped completely. People are they want to have recipes, they don't want the recipe to change too much over time. And that's why relationships tend to be long-term and sticky. You don't change suppliers that easily.
Andrew: It's exactly what you're saying. It sounds so silly but on the fragrances side, which is much smaller for them than the flavor side. But if you get a Tide dishwasher, you buy a box every month, or however frequently you buy a Tide dishwasher. When you open it up, you're going to be used to the smell, right? And that smell is generally made by IFF or T. Hasegawa. It's generally made by them, right? And if one day, Tide says, "You know what? We want to save some money. We're going to put this up for auction and see who will give us the lowest price." And they switch and they get something that doesn't quite smell the same.
When you open your box, as a loyal consumer who has been opening it for 10 years, you're gonna say, "What the heck is going on?" You might not like the smell. You might think that the product is spoiled or something, and you might call them and demand a refund. You might switch to a new brand. It really introduces a lot of risks. So it sounds easy like "Oh, it's a commodity. They're just making some chemicals that don't cost a lot." But it actually has a lot of brand loyalty. It's the magic sauce, right? It costs so little of the product, but it's so critical to the end consumers. How they view the product, how they experience the product, and everything.
The same with, as you said, coke's a great example, they change the flavor profile, and people revolt. I had friends when Coke Zero like 5 or 7 years ago changed the flavor, I had friends who bought like 20 boxes of Coke Zero because they were like, "I can't believe they're destroying this formula." You know like, small changes, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if you are a completely rational human being, but we really latch on to these things and they're really the most important part of how you experienced it. Do you want to add anything there?
Michael Exactly. I mean, that's exactly it. And as you mentioned, if a company were to try to change suppliers for specific products, they can't recreate the exact flavor. They just can't. It's not that easy to recreate the flavor. There are many ways that you can create a specific flavor, like the motivation of it, you can add or mask different tones, notes, and has others also change in texture for different means. It's a very complex thing, and they sit on these recipes, and you're not letting them go.
So, changing the supplier is very difficult, almost doesn't happen. And that explains why the markets are basically 10% per year which in a Japanese context, that's pretty good. For these Kibodam and international companies even better, 20% plus.
Andrew: I'm going to ask you a question, but before I do, we're just getting a little bit of feedback on your end. If you want to try and reposition your mic or something. But I do have a question. If I'm Coke, if I'm Tide, if I'm one of these companies buying a flavor or fragrance from IFF or from T. Hasegawa or anything, how much is that flavor going to cost when it comes to the end product. Like a can of Coke cost $1, how much of the flavor that I'm buying from one of these guys is the cost in there?
Michael Typically, it's below 1% of the total cost of the products, and that will be their variable costs. Pretty much insignificant. I think if you were to use cost [inaudible] goods company wants to reduce cost, that is not the first thing that you do. The first thing is probably taking away products that have lower volumes, and rationalizing your product portfolio. I think that will be the first thing we do and then also reduce discounts or reduce the size of the product, but changing the player profile is not something you do.
Andrew: T. Hasegawa and I believe because I looked at T. Hasegawa and IFF and a bunch of these guys, they run about it's like 40% gross profit, maybe 10% EBITDA, 20% EBITDA margin. Those are nice margins but when you're talking about something that's less than 1% of the cost of a product, and it's got that big of an impact on the whole thing, even if you tried to farm it out, it's not like the margins are so high you can cut the cost, and even if you got somebody who would supply it to you basically at cost like "Cool, you just cut your costs from under a penny to under half a penny and you've destroyed the whole flavor of the profile to say .5% or less on the gross margin line."
It just shows how sticky, and how critical these things are, and this is why investors tend to love this business, right? They're super sticky, they have nice returns, not crazy returns but nice returns, super sticky as long as consumer demand for things that go in our mouth, or that we smell on something continue to grow, they're just going to be a tax on the global economy in the long term. It's great.
Michael Exactly. And I think you will typically grow with your clients. You cross-sell them for the products, or if they are successful and they are growing, you will grow with them, typically. That's how it works. I should also mention that between those two segments, there are fragrances and there are flavors. Fragrances tend to be a more competitive segment, for some reason, like perfumes, they tend to be more international. So, Calvin Klein perfume might actually be quite similar in the U.S and Japan, whereas tastes are very much local.
If you have a local advantage in a country like Japan or Malaysia, it will be difficult for an international company to just come in and guess what locals would like in terms of flavors. It's not that easy. What you enjoy, in terms of flavors is something that you've grown up with for your whole life. You have to understand those nuances and they are different to make markets so I think that creates enormous stability for the whole industry.
Andrew: You're 100% correct. I'm obviously a domestic US. When I went to Japan, you'll just be surprised at some of the flavors of potato chips out there, right? The flavors go so different, or even within the U.S. I'm from New Orleans, which is in the south, and there's one type of seasoning salt that I love to put on basically everything I eat despite how bad it is for you. But in the northeast, there's a different type of seasoning salt that has slightly different taste characters. I hate it, I don't put it on anything but my friends who grew up in the northeast, that's all they put and they don't really like...
It just speaks to even within countries there are regional tastes. And I was using Coke, which is obviously a global thing but the real power is probably where you get these little regional producers and you're the person who's making their specific flavor, and you're locked in. And with Coke, yeah, there would probably be some competition if somebody could steal that flavor just because it is so big, but if it's the person who makes the dominant potato chip brand in like the northeast of the U.S, it's probably not even worth the research budget to try and go oust them.
Michael I think it's often the case as well. These companies, they have specific niches that they dominate. With the [inaudible] T. Hasegawa, I think that they are, for some reason strong in teas, instant noodles, and snacks in these specific regions. Why? I'm not completely sure, but they seem to have certain niches, and one breakthrough that they had in recent years is they're not able to produce natural vanillin, which is the key component of vanilla, without the use of vanilla beans, which saves costs as well. If you're able to use synthetic means to produce flavors that people appreciate at a lower cost, that can also provide an advantage for those who have the technology. And they see only companies in the world can do this.
Andrew: You just mentioned instant noodles, and I was laughing when I looked at there, you've got the Japanese flavor mark and about 10% of it is instant noodles. And I was laughing because, again, domestic US focus I can guarantee that 10% of the US market is not domestic in their instant noodles. Now, 32% of the Japanese market is beverages, 25% dairy, and 13% sweet and savory snacks. I would guess sweet and savory snacks might be a little bit higher in the domestic market, but yeah, I just thought that was interesting.
That's a nice industry overview. Let's turn to the specifics. I guess the first question I always ask them we just did the industry overview, but this will blend nicely. We've described this as a nice industry. I can go invest in IFF, right? International Fragrance. I can go invest in one of these other guys. T. Hasegawa is trading at a cheap multiple. I know that we can get into it later. But I guess my question to you is, the market is a competitive place, why is investing in T. Hasegawa right now, why is that going to generate kind of a risk-adjusted alpha return versus going and buying IFF or going buying any of the 1000s of other stocks in the world?
Michael Well, I'm frustrated with industrialization in terms of giving it forward like making a prediction about the share price, so I'm not gonna go there. But in terms of the positives and negatives about the stock, I can talk about that. And I think the stability of the business is just extraordinary. I don't think anything major is going to change. The risk you're really taking on here is that the pandemic will last slightly longer. Things like that. There's nothing really major that I'm worried about. Those are the risks but then, in terms of growth, I think growth is fairly low, we're talking about 5% is the guidance.
The Japanese market isn't growing much at all, perhaps a few percent, but the Chinese markets, double digits, Southeast Asia, double digits as well, and they now make new special into the U.S as well. They just increased capacity in 2020 by about almost 50%. They are making clever things in terms of growth. It's not because the industry is growing but there's growth in terms of the most profitable business with the Chinese one that has twice the margins of the overall business and that's growing very fast overall. That's driving growth. But then, of course, you also have multiple, and that's going to provide some upside if we believe that it will breach.
Andrew: Let's talk multiple in a second because I agree, that's the most excessive part of the story. But you just mentioned two things I want to drill into a little bit. First, you mentioned the big risk is COVID goes on longer than we think and the big risk to my mental health is that COVID goes on longer, we have lockdowns because of monkeypox, which I don't think are coming with. But like I hear you, there's a risk from COVID, but these guys have grown nicely through the pandemic. And yes, like a lot of their stuff might go into things that you eat or drink at a restaurant, but the counter is a lot of their stuff also goes into the bag of chips that you get at the grocery store, or the stuff you drink at home. They're growing nicely, all this sort of stuff, so why is COVID extending a real risk to this business?
Michael It isn't so much. I think the management team has said that they lost a small portion of it. And the reason is that beverages are not consumed as much at home. If people don't go to the office, they don't consume as many ready-to-make drinks, for example. But then again, just like you said, there are flavors in all types of food. And it's really about processed foods. As long as people continue to consume processed food, or as long as there is a trend toward the consumption of more healthy food, what they try and do is replaced sugar with other flavors that tasted similar to sugar or salt, or something else. [crosstalk] So that makes it affects the industry.
Andrew: In many ways, it is a bet on will people consume, and people think processed food and they think chips and cokes and all this sort of stuff, which you know that is what they make. But it's anything that has additives in it, right? That is what the bet is. If you think that's flat going forward, then they'll probably be about flat growth. If you think that continues to grow, then they're going to continue to grow. They're basically attacks on that. And if you think the world reverts to, "Hey, we only eat meat that we kill with our hands." and everybody's going to eat nothing but vegetables and like organic meat. Well, there's not really a place for their products in that type of world.
Michael Exactly. I mean, it sounds like it's a kind of a double-edged sword, the fact that people are more just about health. Frankly, if people consume more processed food that will be perfect for these flavors and fragrances companies because processed food is where they use these types of flavors. But like I said, there's also this travel towards away from sugar, and away from salt. And this could also, ironically, actually lead you to more artificial substances in food. That's what's driving growth, I think, in Japan, and in Western markets, where people are trying to eat more healthily. With the growth in China and Southeast Asia, that's more about high consumption of processed food, including going to restaurants.
Andrew: Let me ask you about China now. You mentioned that China has much higher margins than the rest of the business and it's growing much faster, which I get but as a domestic investor like I've seen all these companies invest in China, and like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for China just generally hasn't been there. It's generally been, "Oh, all my penny got stolen by a local Chinese company." or "Oh, the margins got competed away into infinity and we got tax and everything." So, how much of their sales and profits are from China and why is China this pot of gold for them?
Michael Sales to China is about 15 to 20%. I think the share of operating profit from China is about 30%. You can see the margins are much higher than the average, and I think they rely on certain customers. They mentioned 2 Taiwanese customers, one of which I believe is Uni-President who's been extremely successful in China. The interests of you know, they're rich. They produce, primarily beverages, teas or salt, as well as insulins.
I'm not sure which of the other Chinese companies, but for some reason, they have been successful. They are kind of regarded as domestic, and Uni-President, in particular, is receiving significant subsidies from the Chinese government. I don't think there's any real issue there with the relationship with the Chinese government or their ability to make any profit. In fact, I think they're doing just fine for some reason. I mean, perhaps that will change but yeah, I'm not seeing any sign of it actually. They're doing pretty well up until China Zero, the COVID policy, but that's more of a short-term issue.
Andrew: Yep. Let me ask the other question. I think this is the reason you got interested in them. The reason you started. The reason you read them up. AVI which is a Value Fund, a little bit of an activist fund, sent a letter to T. Hasegawa that basically said, "Hey, you guys trade for about 10x for EBITDA. Your peer-straight for about 20x forward EBITDA." Your business, if you look at all the metrics, margins, return on equity, not for a reason we're talking about but margins return on invested capital, it's pretty much the same as all of your peers, you're in the same business, it's got the same trends. You guys are trading for half the multiple, you need to do something to fix this.
Anyone who's invested in Japanese stocks before is probably aware of some of the reasons that Japanese stocks tend to trade undervalued. It's Hasegawa very much in line with this 25% of their market cap or so is in cross-holdings, cash investments, which really drags down your return on equity, right? That's why I said the return on equity, is not quite there even though everything else is. They've got a lot of cash on the balance sheet but that's an opportunity. Just want to toss it over to you. This is trading for half the multiple peers. Why is it trading profit from multiple peers and what do you think the solution is to kind of get it towards where peers are trading?
Michael Exactly. I mean, that's the key question. And I think in the past, they've had the issue of slow growth. Frankly, top-line growth has low single digits and that's weak, unfortunately. I think part of the reason is that the management team has been extremely conservative and hasn't gone after new customers or trying to find solutions to problems that are out there, or being not particularly proactive in finding new customers. So, that is the issue. That has been the issue.
I think another reason is that the cash has been on the balance sheet, and they haven't done anything with the cash or the cross-holdings that they have. In fact, it's about a 100 billion Yen market cap. The net cash is above 20 billion, but the cross-holdings and the treasury shares are another 20 billion, so they're actually looking at 40% of the market cap if you include all these cross-holdings that they have, essentially, shareholdings in listed equities, primarily Japanese equities. But that's all changed now. At least, that seems to be the case.
In 2017, the company had a new CEO called Takao Umino and I think, his approach has been different. He's a professional measure. He has a Harvard MBA. Prior to becoming CEO, he ran a Chinese business, which was highly successful. The most successful of any of the company's businesses. Since he became CEO in 2017, they've done a number of acquisitions including the acquisition of Mission Flavor and Fragrances in the United States. That was done on a P/E ratio, the adjusted basis of about 13 times, which is just amazing. Fantastic acquisition.
Otherwise, they've also repurchased shares, 1 million shares in market 2020 at, frankly, a good time. That was right when the market slumped. That happened, actually, before AVI became involved. And since then, AVI sent a letter to the medical team, complaining basically, that the past decade was quite weak, and they've been growing slower. They gave a few suggestions, one of which was to revamp the leadership or revamp the sales organization to better in the new demands of customers.
Andrew: Let me push back on two things there. So, number one is the acquisition, right? And I'm with you. They did this acquisition, I think you had in your thing, they acquired it for a low teens multiple. And one of the reasons they acquired it was because the finances look not great because the Founder and CEO was paying himself like basically all the profits and then salary, so you had to adjust for that. But they acquired [inaudible] and I'm with you.
We already said IFF trades for 20x. You can buy something in this business for the low teens, that's probably pretty good. And I don't think aside from cutting the founder's salary, I don't think that included any of the other synergies, right? That looks very nice but, again, this is a business. They paid 13 times to buy something, and they're trading at 10 times. Why am I looking at this acquisition and saying, "This is good capital allocation versus this is shady capital allocation versus buying back your own shares?"
Michael You're right. I think in my experience in Japan, you're not going to get a completely rational capital allocation. That's just not going to happen. It almost never happens that they would repurchase 40 billion worth of stock. It's just not going to happen. But just a step in the right direction will it close this out a little bit, at least that's what AVI is hoping for, and I think that's probably reasonable. They did it after AVI became involved in March 2001. They did repurchase stock again, 400,000 shares in May 2021. That's still a fairly modest purchase of the shares outstanding. I think it's 45 million or something like that. But still, I mean, these are small steps in the right direction.
I think, obviously what they should do is sell their cross-holdings fast. I think at the current rate, they're selling about half a billion per quarter. So, that's 2 billion per year. They have 18 billion in cross-holdings, so it's going to take a long time before they divested all. Absolutely. I agree with you. I would like to see a much more aggressive measure in such a buying back stock. Yeah. Let's see.
There's also another thing that I should mention. The company was founded by 1 person in 1903, and it's been run by the family. And the last of the family resigned in December 2021, 6 months ago. So, it's only been professionally run for 6 months. He was the chairman, the nephew of the founder. So, it's possible. It's highly possible, but it will be more receptive to change. I think in these family companies, a lot of times when you offer them suggestions, they will not listen to you. And perhaps with a professional manager, who's Harvard educated, perhaps they'll be more receptive to these modern ideas about management.
Andrew: Yeah. Look, I'm with you. It all lines up at the same time. I'm sure every domestic investor, every US domestic investor has had the experience of going to Japan, looking, seeing a company is like, "Oh, net cash trading for half their peers." And then, so let's go buy it and something good will happen. Then 5 years later, they look and like, "The nice thing is, you're probably not going to get killed, right?" They've gotten that cash. It's a really stable business. This isn't the thing that goes zero, but you go back and you look, and 5 years later you're like, Oh, cool. Like I made 3% annualized returns because the company kept saying, "Yes, we're gonna do something good." And they never get rid of the cash holdings. They never really buy back shares aggressively. The cash just keeps building up and you clip a little dividend and the multiple stays flat. And after 5 years, like, I'm still in the same boat, it still looks just as undervalued, and it's still just as long as log to unlocking things.
Michael I agree with you. That's typically the way it plays out, to be honest. There are a few exceptions as well, but I think there were few and far between. Let's see, I mean, if you ask me personally the way I'm investing, I'm looking for symmetries. Here, it seems like one of those situations, it's not just any company that's polyvalum[?] has no cash. This is actually a reasonably decent company. I think you could plausibly have training in high multiple, all it takes is just more high dividends.
Andrew: And the nice thing here is like, it is a business. This is a company that's going to grow. It looks like they're going to grow 5% for the next few years. Like you can see all the reasons why they should grow. 5% is a little above global GDP. You can see all the reasons why it should grow a little bit above global GDP. It's not like I've seen a lot of these Japanese companies now. Some of them trade with a lot more net cash on their balance sheet. But you go buy and you're basically like, Hey, this is a declining business. So, I'm just kind of milking the free cash that declines. That gets really bad when the company doesn't return the cash flow to shareholders.
Whereas here, they do pay a little dividend. They had done a little bit of share buybacks but if in 5 years, you and I are doing this podcast again, we're probably talking about a company whose sales are 20% higher, and because sales are 20% higher earnings or 25% higher. And that gives just like a little more of the time and earnings on your side as an investor.
Michael Yeah. Of course, just like you say, I really do. The biggest risk is that your cash will be basically not compatible with very rapid rates.
Andrew: Michael, anything else on this you think we didn't hit hard enough, or you kind of wish we had hit that we didn't hit?
Michael I think we pretty much covered it. There are a few other things that are potentially positive. One thing is that they dispunge[?] the expansion to the U.S operations, so the second plant in Rancho Cucamonga. And that will increase capacity by about 50% from February this year and that's something new. The U.S, I think, represents about 15% of revenues. It hasn't been all that profitable yet to U.S operations but let's see. That is a major catalyst, I think.
We spoke about selling down cross-holdings. They have about 140 million or so you're seeing in cross-holdings. That's a catalyst. And then, I think something new for the last 2 months is that the Yen has dropped from 115 to 108. And that's also going to be positive, certainly for exporters. If you're able to buy, in terms of lower rates as an American investor, that's just an added bonus. I wouldn't say that the margins weren't necessarily going to go up, because, unlike some other exporters, their costs are also matched to the revenue. But certainly, you're getting a discount [inaudible] otherwise.
Andrew: All make sense. Hey, I know you cover a lot of different Asian companies, and Asian countries. Right now, just throwing you on the spot, what do you think an investor today was like, "Hey, I want to start diving into some Asian countries." Just countries in general, what do you think the most attractive kind of country for them to start would be?
Michael I think the easiest place to look is Indonesia. I am involved in a number of consumer stocks which have hits to some extent by COVID. The Indonesian economy has been hit hard by COVID because there were no budget deficits or anything like that. They took it in stride and the economy suffered through a deep recession. And they're not coming out of it, basically.
Meanwhile, the economy is doing very well. The trade surplus in it is at a record high because it has exposure to commodities. Indonesia, that [inaudible] it just does not make sense to me that these consumer companies, like chocolate producers, will trade to think of the theme of the book with cash. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Indonesia is one country that I will look for.
The other one is probably, potentially. Malaysia is another country. Currency is really cheap. It is also benefiting from commodity prices. And then exports in Japan, or COVID-19 recovery stocks. That's true for the whole region. COVID-19 is becoming less of an issue for the region. Our recovery is much later than yours but tourism is now coming back. And normal consumption patterns, transport, restaurants, and everything is really booming. Japan and Indonesia are two markets that I will look for.
Andrew: And I know tourism is coming back because I told you before the podcast started, my wife and I are looking to finally - we honeymooned in Vietnam, and we've been wanting to go but it's been close to tourists because of COVID. And it's opening up and we're finding like "Hey, let's go visit Michael out in Singapore. Let's fly to Singapore and hop over to Vietnam" and we're really looking forward to that. But hey, I've got to wrap it up here. I've got a little puppy emergency I've got to take care of.
Well, Michael, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This is great. Looking forward to having you on again. Maybe we'll talk Indonesia next time, we were talking Malaysia but everyone should check out Asian Century Stocks and we will go from there.
Thanks again, Michael.
Michael Cool. Thank you so much.